Author Topic: Hot Trojan  (Read 4769 times)

john p

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Hot Trojan
« on: June 03, 2012, 08:09:14 PM »
Just after any ideas,suggestions however random about my bubble.After a couple of years laid up i got her out and dusted her off sorted brakes etc  about 18 months ago treated her to a new exhaust from the club supplies and off we went again.Unfortunately she seems to run much hotter than she used to i checked timing and mixture and checked advance bob weights not stuck .I wondered if the new exhaust was causing too much back pressure and did ask the supplier if anyone had had any problems andwas assured not,unable to refit old one to prove a point as it completely fell apart on removal .Am reluctant to open up new silencer to look in/perhaps modify and weld back up but may end up doing so.I am sure some of you vastly more experienced  owners may have some suggestions any ideas however humourus much appreciated.

marcus

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Re: Hot Trojan
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 08:45:39 AM »
Sorry I cannot help, but hope someone else can
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

Big Al

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Re: Hot Trojan
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 09:42:59 AM »
This is interesting as Russ and I got 2/3rds of the way through making a copy of the best silencer Heinkel offered. That being the oval one which was fitted to early three or four wheelers. This is a very complicated bit of kit inside. It has three chambers and about 5 cross pipes. It is also stronger as the pipes are in the middle rather than the far end where they get increased leverage in shaking. Most Trojan type era silencers loose their tailpipes.

While this project was in work I offered them to the Club. They were not very interested despite my having a prototype cutaway that shows the internals along with two halved originals used as patterns. The claim was that the club silencer was just as sophisticated inside. I have no reason to doubt this, save cost. I know what ours will cost and Russ makes original and modified Messerschmitt silencers which are being greedily bought direct from him since the MOC took a decision to create a situation leading to dispensing with his services thus removing there 40 plus % mark up on the product. Seems a bit of an own goal but what ever, good news for the Schmitter, as Russ bits are now cheaper and available to all not just members of that single club! He also makes Tiger exhausts and lots of panels and brackets while I am banging that drum. See www.messerschmittclub.org.uk known as KaRoScene.

The Heinkel exhaust is actually a tuned instrument and applies certain two stroke principles to get the gas moving. Just bunging a random box on it does not work. This was proved back in the day with MIck Leeson as Bismark had a home made extractor system as part of its modified engine. This unit would burn off a Messerschmitt and do 60 mph. Admittedly not for long but that was as far as we got before Mick died. A tragedy for many reasons apart from the expectation of a big valve, oil pump served cross drilled crank with small oil cooler, downdraft powered engine that would have resolved the heinkel engine issues and offered more reliable power.

The centre pipe Russ exhaust will be completed and made but only once Russ has caught up with his Messerschmitt parts orders and got his house finished. I am confidant that once put on a few cars it will be seen to be a superior item just as his other units are.

Sounds like you have checked the usual suspects. Bing carbs are passed masters at supplying weak mixture as they leak air like a sieve. The Pallas is a much better item, but rarer, as it has a slide seal and tuffnel sleeve sealing the manifold joint. The slide is less prone to wear as well.

The advance and retard is greatly ignored on Trienkels. It is not sufficient to check the unit is rotating. They have a issue where the hard steel of the bob weight springs wear away the bob weight making the assembly loose and ineffective. Once certain then the timing can be played with. Fuel has been changed in the period you have not been running the car. It has more volatile gases in it. I do not know the characteristics to advise but I suspect it burns faster as there is less energy in the fuel and thus the charge now. I certainly had to wind the Steyr Puch engines way back to stop predetonation. Ignoring three sets of timing marks on those engines must mean things have changed in terms of fueling.

Lastly make sure the heater flap is closed so the maximum amount of air is passing through the cowling. There should be a prescribed gap, not least filled with the usual missing warm/cold start nozzle, between exhaust silencer and the exit for hot air. If the silencer is shoved up hard against the exit of air it will interfere with air flow out of and round the engine, possibly passing it over the carb plus radiate heat back and even boil up the petrol in the tank! Hot fuel is not only rather dangerous but it weakens the charge making the engine run off true.

Lastly if you have a in line fuel filter fitted, get rid of it. Air cooled engines do not like them. There should be a filter gauze around the float bowl union bolt.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

john p

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Re: Hot Trojan
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 07:49:12 PM »
Thank you for replies ,i had wondered if new fuel had any thing to do with it,i have not got inline filter,Will check heaterflap shut and silencer clearance to air outlet also another look at timing and carb it has a bing one on it.

Big Al

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Re: Hot Trojan
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 08:39:36 AM »
The leaks on the Bing are

1/ The top of the slide where the lid goes on. I attempted to make a gasket for this but it does not really work well and not at all if the lid locating slot is worn as there is the first big hole for air to get in.

2/ The cable mounting will let some air in but again if this is flapping about or botched it will be a lot worse.

3/ The above would not matter too greatly if the carb slide was a good fit in the carb body. Normally it is worn and is not. Thus air can be sucked passed the piston. No easy cure.

  This wear is a caused by the rather poor quality alloy used, fine for two strokes as they tend to deposit ST30 style oil lubricating and helping to seal the slide. The four strokes do not have this advantage. The wear is also a product of poor design principles as one spring tensions the slide mech. The slide lives down in the relaxed position. It needs to be a strong spring as it is overcoming the drag of the throttle system, aided in part by the throttle balance mech on the firewall, but also overcoming the sprung loaded accelerator pump in the emulsion tube below the venturi. The mod therefore is to take out the single Bing spring in favour of a pair of springs with the equivalent pressure and performance. This spreads the load on the slide to either side of the central stiffener instead of driving it to one side into the carb body and wearing it away. This also tends to stop the slide locating tab wearing away as the slide is forced continually from the vertical and seems to attempt to rotate as the spring expands.
  So if you have a Bing carb in good condition I would fit twin springs before you wear out the slide and carb body. If it is to late I have a brilliant mod on one carb. It has a brass sheath on an original slide and the carb body has been reamed out to fit. This is actually better than the brand new Bing I have!

4/ The emulsion tube under the venturi screws into the insert which is key to producing the mixture. I really am not sure what to call this part. Experience has shown me this is a much ignored element of the carb on rebuild. The thread gets deposited on it and is not easy to clean. Also often the special fibre washer is missing. However the brass tube needs to butt up tight to be in position and to seal the fuel area of the carb from the air part. Clearly a leak or mal-aligned emulsion tube will effect performance potential.

5/ The carb to manifold mounting is by a four flange cylindrical clamp. This has no sealing system at all and has four air breathing slots creating the segments to be clamped into the bargain. Quite why, in this installation, it has no tuffnal gasket, as in most Bing fittings, I do not know. However the capacity for a huge air leak here is clear. It is crap but there is not much you can do about it save making the best of a bad fit. Worth checking out for the best fitting inlet manifold if you have spares. As experiments Mick used petroleum jelly to seal the joint. This made a distinct difference but lasted only a short time. This is why we all switched to Pallas carbs as they do have an air tight seal here.

Frankly I have never understood the Trienkel club over the years. They have consistently refused to invest in technology, now much more available, to resolve this whole carburettor issue. That policy would be to ignore the 'buy a bolt on' boys who have various favoured replacement carbs they promote as a swap for actually going to a rolling road with a set up, standard car. From here it should be possible to get a professional to try a selection of carburettors and jettings on the rolling road and so prove the best performer that is available off the shelf. Russ and Ian Frankland did just this to verify a Dellorto bolt on kit to improve Sachs 200 performance. The purchase price is roughly that of a good second hand original carb. For those wishing to drive a car a cpmplete no brainer. 
The Heinkel engine has a far greater carburetion problem than the Messerschmitt so one can only wonder at the reasons why Treinkelnauts remain struggling with a carburettor that was rubbish the day it was fitted to the cars and one of its Achilles heels. I understand many folk wish to have a 100% original car and I applaud them, but it would be nice to have a verified and easy to buy option to a carburettor now unavailable new and normally worn out, would it not? I might be old fashioned but I thought that is what clubs were for.

To illustrate this in action I can remember coming back from a Story rally in my botched together 300cc Goggomobil with passenger tents, tools etc. The engine had burned out a piston so it was running a 250cc top end, thus the porting was compromised and not even standard 250cc 14 hp would be available on a heavy car compared to a Treinkel. Believe me a 250cc Goggo can spot a hill coming a mile away! Yet after a stop I not only caught up four of the best Trienkels on the road at the time but overtook them on a steep gentle climb just before swinging onto the M25. Now my experience of Treinkels suggested that should not have happened. At least two of those cars had bolt on replacement carbs claimed to improve performance. I think one other of them was peer pressured into sticking with his buddies as his car normally would of whooped me up there so I discount him. Funnily enough he is the only one I know still drives his car occasionally, he has a large choice.
Compare that to our earlier trips to Story in well prepared Treinkels on standard carbs when Saturday was a tour of the Harz mountains with climbs big enough to frighten off the schmitts who made there excuses and disappeared. At the time the Isettas were kings of the mountains and were most upset when three Trienkels passed them in formation doing some 10 MPH more. Trienkels can be made to go very well but it is all down to attention to detail and not like, say, a schmitt which will go pretty well just cobbled together. That often requires more motivation to hold the faith if you have no nearby chums to help. But a good Treinkel will surprise in action so keep the faith.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs