Author Topic: Suzuki  (Read 10403 times)

marcus

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 08:02:33 PM »
My choice of vehicles is helped by co-ownership, which might not suit all.

A modern TG 500 would be fantastic and could easily be achieved, BUT as a 4 wheeler it would have to comply with HUNDREDS of modern legal and safety requirements. Impact protection and crumple zones, ride height, illumination, exhaust, seat belts and so many other things which all add weight and size. To get the lively performance of a Tiger in this new heavier and bigger beast you would then have to ramp up the power, perhaps not a huge amount because modern engines tend to have more power. They are also bigger and more complex and have more "infrastructure" to make them work well AND within legislation.

You would soon end up with something very much like the new Mini Coopers.
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Jonathan Poll

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »
My choice of vehicles is helped by co-ownership, which might not suit all.

A modern TG 500 would be fantastic and could easily be achieved, BUT as a 4 wheeler it would have to comply with HUNDREDS of modern legal and safety requirements. Impact protection and crumple zones, ride height, illumination, exhaust, seat belts and so many other things which all add weight and size. To get the lively performance of a Tiger in this new heavier and bigger beast you would then have to ramp up the power, perhaps not a huge amount because modern engines tend to have more power. They are also bigger and more complex and have more "infrastructure" to make them work well AND within legislation.

You would soon end up with something very much like the new Mini Coopers.

Every other car has to go through those regulations, nothing new to the designers. Al, I don't mean as a kit car, they dont need to find an engine. They can make engines for there cars, so why dont they make a new, small engine? vAs long as its lightweight, but still enough power, it should do!
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Chris Thomas

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 08:24:37 PM »
Dear Al , Jonathan and Marcus

A Caterham 7 with say a 500 cc motorcycle engine retuned to give less revs and more torque should be possible.

For racing they take 2 Hyabusa motorcycle engines and shoe horn them into a Caterham 7 to get more top speed.

Taking an existing vehicle and making a few mods should be easier to get through the regs that starting from scratch.

I know it would never be a family vehicle, but for commuting it could half your fuel bills.

Chris Thomas

AndrewG

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 08:25:05 PM »
I would really like to take a Caterham 7 and change the engine  for something much smaller and economical
There is a US guy who has put a (I think) Kubota diesel in a Locost (DIY 7 clone) and he has a decent web site - which of course I now can't find.

The problem I see with most microcar ideas is pricing - low volume means very expensive so why should I pay more for a NewSchmitt™ than a Ka.  Competitive price and hence high volume means someone taking an almighty risk that the NewSchmitt™ will sell.  And then it'll only be 5-10% cheaper than a Ka, because it'll have most of the same kit in it - a rear seat, two fixed windows and a bit of steel don't cost much. 

marcus

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 08:33:51 PM »
It's nothing new to the designers, but it means that the new Tiger could be forced to become a completely different car. It was criticised at the time for having very little space and anti-social seating despite its dimensions, and sales were very modest. It is a glorious machine, but of its time, and best left as a unique masterpiece. A good modern replica (Evans perhaps?) would probably be quite expensive, but still find buyers in a small specialised market, but not really any hope of it being successfully mass produced
I think Insight's idea of a modern 7 would also give a lot of Tiger-style driving appeal although it would not look anything like a TG. It would not be a practical, weather-proof every day car, but a good fun car. The Suzuki Cappuccino was not that far from this idea, but was a genuine prospect for any day/any weather driving.
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Jonathan Poll

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 08:57:13 PM »
It's nothing new to the designers, but it means that the new Tiger could be forced to become a completely different car. It was criticised at the time for having very little space and anti-social seating despite its dimensions, and sales were very modest. It is a glorious machine, but of its time, and best left as a unique masterpiece. A good modern replica (Evans perhaps?) would probably be quite expensive, but still find buyers in a small specialised market, but not really any hope of it being successfully mass produced
I think Insight's idea of a modern 7 would also give a lot of Tiger-style driving appeal although it would not look anything like a TG. It would not be a practical, weather-proof every day car, but a good fun car. The Suzuki Cappuccino was not that far from this idea, but was a genuine prospect for any day/any weather driving.

I didnt say it had to be a tiger replica, I was jsut saying a TG style car. Cockpit, wings, light, small engine, but fast foir the size.
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AndrewG

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 12:03:32 AM »
Here is the Kubota-Locost

Big Al

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 09:16:20 AM »
I am ignoring registration issues here as the topic is spread between volumn to special production. Each approach can be dealt with.

A Caterham is now an expensive car. So experimenting on a lower value machine would allow the development proccess to be done without major cost. On creating a workable solution the design can be put into the more sophistacated Caterham. Both these cars should have an existing ID. So that idea has legs and would be an interesting project.

  A modern Tiger would be a niche market. I believe it exists but the problem is it is like a good book turned to film. In making the new image you disappoint many private imagined versions of the same thing. It therefore has to be good.
  In my opinion the design lends itself to development in tandem with a low cost racing formula that fits between Karts and Formula Ford or whatever it is now. If that race series can be sold, like Caterham Racing, or Ginetta Racing then the business can exist. The size of the car lends itself to single seat racing on larger Kart tracks knocking down the cost of entrance. This could be the winning element as a less wealthy father can put his kid forward in a series other than Karting to the attention of the system looking for talent. This rather than than expense of going into full single seat circuit racing. Yet it is cheap enough for casual participation needing no more than a Kart size back up to run. You cannot buy a road going Kart or single sear race car but you could buy a road going Tiger thus clearly there would be two categories. The racing ones and the road driven entrants. The car would need to be something similar to a rear engined Smart Roadster but made to Tiger layout. A well developed package could be just as successful as Caterham. I humbly suggest that it is a far better business plan than creating replica microcars however there are problems. Money to finance the business and technical skills to develop a seriously builtproof chassis.

Manufacturing a new small low rev high torque engine for a low volume car. Cannot see it happening. Creating a new engine costs an utter fortune these days. It needs to then sell thousands of units. That is why dump truck engines find there way into little cars etc etc. There are options though. Tiger powered by a modified Wankel unit as used in pumps. For the road a multi gear auto with the option for a touch manual system for those who wish it. All technology that exists and that wankel actually runs on kerosene in the field. Wankels will run on virtually anything, even powdered starch! The catch is to be efficient they are best kept between a specific rev range not being so good at lower revs. Of course they will rev to very high revs but that is not what is needed. The mistake NSU made in not putting a rev limiter on the RO 80. Now gearbox technology has caught up it will be possible to make a much more economical wankel power unit for an auto-mobile. Of course none of the motor manufacturers have noticed this as they employ stylists to make the humbug cars not engineers. Which is, of course, why the humbugs never turn into real cars. The engineers are busy doing something useful as good ones are far rarer than stylists these days. No? Stylist is a couple of years drawing, Engineer is 7 years of hard graft and knowledge in the bonce.......
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marcus

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 10:10:50 AM »
Interesting points Alan. The Mazda RX seems to be selling in reasonable numbers and I for one cannot understand why rotary engines are still so rare, but I did not know they were used for pumps. It seems to me that if rotary engines of the right size are available then a new Tiger could be a very attractive possibility.
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Big Al

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2011, 10:42:47 AM »
Wankels are found in pumps and drones. Sounds like a computer game for farts. In both installations they run at a set speed and are tuned to be economical at that speed. This because they are part two stroke. They are sensitive to exhaust tuning for instance.
The problem with them are two fold and PR issues. First they are thought to be unreliable. This goes back to the early NSU experience. Mazda have resolved most of those issues. The second issue is thirst. That is where you need to control the rev range of the car. Given that rotary engines provide a lot of power for the swept volume a road car can be made with enough torque to drive well. For racing the rev limit on upper and lower engine speed becomes part of the challenge for the driver using a manual version of the gearbox. This is not greatly different to F1 racing now as the engines in that formula have naff all power below about 12,000 revs. They in fact run a tight revband since they are now restricted on engines. The situation is annaligious.
Norton ran a bike with a rotary engine in class. It was wickedly fast in a straight line but the budget never saw the racers handle well. NSU Spyders on their early single rotor engine are pictured pulling wheelies. There is no doubting the power from a small unit. The challenge is to apply it in a form to make the engine efficient in use on a variable speed machine.
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marcus

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2011, 10:45:07 AM »
I hope hope someone can find the will and the way!
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Barry

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 12:01:25 PM by Isetta_Owner »

marcus

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Re: Suzuki
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2011, 12:34:38 PM »
Quite fun. logical idea: Pendolino trains corner faster and more comfortably by leaning.
The drawback is that drivers will take full advantage of any extra performance that is available, but when things do go wrong, like hitting an object in the road while cornering fast, then very few drivers have the skill to avoid a collision. The car occupants will be safely coccooned in their impact zones, seat belts and airbags, but anything outside the faster-cornering car, (pedestrians, cyclists, animals tress and buildings) will suffer even more damage.
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face